Welcome to the stand. Today we have with
us Adam.dev. If you do not know, the
legendary vegan from the Ozarks. He has
single-handedly helped make something
compete against Claude Code by himself.
Adam is a fantastic dev and we've made
fun of him many times for being a vegan
and going to Korean barbecue with us.
But the more important thing about Adam
is that he went from coding everything
by hand, not really into the AI, going
to full AI psychosis. And apparently he
is back out of AI psychosis, coming into
reality again, took a month off the
internet. And when we saw this, we said,
"Okay, Adam, come on. Talk to us. We got
to hear the story. We got to understand
it." Because I think a lot of people are
probably feeling they're probably in the
month-long adventure or they wish they
had the month-long adventure or even
more so they're probably in full AI
psychosis right now not even realizing
they need whatever you whatever you had.
So we'd love to hear the story and all
that. TJ interruption now.
>> Oh I was just going to say I'm building
my own programming language.
Yeah.
Uh, anyways, sorry,
>> Adam. So, can you give those of us who
don't know like a little bit of
background on like where this whole
thing started cuz like I also don't know
if everyone knows that you worked on
Open Code. I mean, they might only be
passingly familiar with Open Code. So,
could we get can we get like the deep
the the starting point of the story
>> from zero to one, shall we say?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, yeah. I guess it starts uh like
April of last year. So Claude Code came
out in maybe like February, something
like that. Uh, and I started working on
Open Code in April.
>> And I I would say like that was around
the Claude 3.7. I'm going to reference a
lot of model numbers because it's just
kind of like the timeline. It helps me
remember everything. Uh, that was like
3.7 where I I feel like more it was kind
of picking up. More people were playing
with the whole agentic thing. Uh so not
just like going to the browser and
asking questions and then copy pasting
code but like letting it run on your
machine uh cloud code style. So I
started working on it in April and I
would say like until September maybe
September October I wasn't really using
the stuff. I was building it mostly by
hand. Uh and I would just like forget
and I know Dax and I have talked about
this a lot. we would just completely
forget to use it for weeks or for a week
and then be like, "Oh man, if I'm going
to make this and expect people to use
it, I should be using it,
>> right?"
>> Uh, so mostly like through the summer
just kind of doing everything by hand,
still
>> like playing with it, but not really
sold and not really impressed with with
what it was able to do. Uh, I guess it
was it was sometime in the fall when I
think it was Opus 4. It could be 4
something, but I think it was four when
I started trying to lean harder into it
over the the fall. And again, it just
like, and I've always found this with
the claw models, it just like took so
many shortcuts and did so many stupid
things that I had a hard time like
handing over anything to it without just
feeling like I wasted my time. Uh, yeah.
I I wish Trash was here. I feel like he
would be able to relate more with me.
Like I think when I saying this, I'm
just assuming Casey's thinking it's
still a waste of time.
>> We all wish trash was with us. Okay,
it's okay, Adam. We all
>> here. Here, I'll I'll I'll be trash.
Okay.
>> Hey, is that HTTP? Get that out of here.
That's not how we order coffee. We order
coffee via SSH terminal.shop. Yeah. You
want a real experience? You want real
coffee? You want awesome subscriptions
so you never have to remember again? Oh,
you want exclusive blends with exclusive
coffee and exclusive content? Then check
out Kron. You don't know what SSH is?
>> Well, maybe the coffee is not for you.
Terminal coffee
in hand.
>> To your point though, Adam, I 100%
agree. I feel like
Claude, it loves to be lazy.
>> Yeah, I never really and I still don't
really use the Cloud models. I It was
like really winter sometime. I think it
was December that the GPT5.2 model came
out somewhere around there. And that was
the first time because I had been
reviewing every line that Claude would
spit out. That was the first time that I
was using GPT. There was a few people on
Twitter very actively like praising it
and very loud about it. Uh it was like
reviewing the GPT output compared to the
cloud stuff. It was just so much more
clever. It felt like it it was taking
its time and like it took forever to run
like it was much slower. Uh but I felt
like hey this model output is good
enough that I want to use it more. That
was for the first time I think that I
really started leaning hard into it.
>> It's kind there actually about that
because this is interesting. I feel like
so as someone on the outside of this
sort of stuff, I feel like if I if you'd
asked me like from what you see online,
which of the two models do people
prefer, I would have assumed it was
anthropic because that's what people
always talk about. Is that fake news?
Like is that not really the case? At
least in your experience.
>> I mean, I think this year GPT has kind
of taken the mantle. And I'm speaking
more for like the extremely online
crowd. I don't think I have any idea
what the broader like 80% of developers
who just clock in clock out what they're
doing but the people who talk a lot
online I think GPT models since 5.2 to
have kind of slowly taken and now to the
point I think codeex is kind of the
default. Our team at anomaly I mean 20
20 of us we we by far use the GPD
models.
>> I would say Casey um the thing I've seen
>> is a lot of people who don't want to
look at the code ever really like ant
cla code. Not to say that there aren't
people who like
>> uh like who like looking at code who
aren't ser like I'm there are a lot of
people who are serious engineers who
still like that. But in my experience
it's been like cool I can pay $20
Anthropic gives me $4,000 of tokens. I
don't ever look at the code and I'm like
I have 35 new dashboards. And you're
like but did the dashboards do anything?
But I have 35 of them. So, so not to put
too point fine a point on it here, but
like it sort of sounds like you guys are
saying that for the discerning customer,
you're going to pick chat GPT. Is that
sort of what you're saying at this
point? I mean, I don't want to
>> So, I'm not a chat GPT guy, though. I I
do I do throw it over there. I I
personally every time I generate
something with chat GPT, claude or uh
other models, I find myself always
refactoring and fixing them. And I keep
on trying to make this better and nicer.
And I keep trying to get to this golden
land of you can just produce code and be
happy, but I have yet to be happy. And
so I find them all to be near similar
and that how you prompt it probably
makes a bigger impact.
>> Okay.
>> Except for Claude loves like adding like
GPT loves adding tests. Like they all
kind of have their own like little
flavors to things.
>> Okay.
>> I would say like this generation with
the latest models. They're probably all
pretty similar. I think it's more
probably like the the relations to
developers from anthropic versus open AI
has shifted a lot and I think there's
been a lot of backlash with just the way
anthropics handled certain things. So
it's probably more that at this point.
>> Okay.
>> Sorry. I just I just wanted to hear that
cuz you know I don't have experience
with these things. So I was just kind of
I was curious on that because it's like
it seems like the public uh the public
perception sometimes seems to be that
anthropic is ahead in some way but that
sounds like that's not really true from
the experience of people here. So that
that was good friction. Thank you. I
>> I do want to throw one more thing out
from uh I think it was Lex Friedman who
said this which is that people develop
like a personal love for the model cuz
they solved a problem at a time
>> and then at some point in the future it
fails on solving a problem. So they
switch models and then that new model
successfully does it. So they're like
that's my new favorite one. That's so
it's like more of a like an irrational
love as opposed to like a highly
scientific this is the good one.
>> They're not actually counting like how
many times did this one do a good job,
how many times did that one do a good
job. They're just kind of like
remembering the last big success or
something.
>> Yes, I think that that's that's
typically where it goes.
>> Yeah. I also think probably like people
are discounting that like the models
probably do some stuff differently. Like
they're pretty big. They spend a lot of
money. They've seen a lot of different
stuff. They have different things and
like probably different people's brains,
my guess, would on average work better
for different ones where like, oh, I'm
an overt talker. Maybe it you know, like
there's probably some stuff too where
it's like like that. You'll definitely
see some and like Adam you probably know
feel this too like if I ask GPT to make
if I make like whatever you know 55 if I
ask it to make something and I tell it
to make some UI it will put in the UI
all over the place and it will say
without fail which I don't understand
how they haven't gotten rid of this
hello this is an app built with effect
and it's running on bun also click down
here for more info and you're
What website ever said? When you get to
the front page, they say, "Here's our
tech stack." as the first big header.
Every time you do this, I don't
understand why it's doing this, but it
literally just says, "Hello, here's our
tech stack, and here's some quote from
you describing what you wanted, how to
build this, and you're like,
>> "Okay, guys, that that's crazy." So, for
>> anyways, I don't know, Adam, you can
keep on
>> they do some things clearly different,
and you feel it like when you're using
them. Yeah.
>> Yeah, that's definitely part of it. I
think for a long time people have
complained that the codeex models that
the GBT models are pretty bad at UI and
Sonnet seems to or Opus seem to be
better at that stuff. So it is weird and
like everybody has different workflows.
Some people like to work with it where
they tell it exactly what to do and they
just want to do it very fast. So people
like DHH are very vocal about models
like Kimmy K2.6 or whatever the open
source models.
>> Okay.
>> Uh because they're very fast and they
can be very good at those kind of tasks.
But if you want to like have it build
broader things, scope out, you know,
boilerplate stuff for like a whole
project, then maybe other models are
better. There's all these kind of
nuances. But
>> I think what Prime said, going back to
the the like last success, that was
really kind of what I think spun me off
into what I would call the psychosis.
Okay, cool.
>> Once you
>> once you've been into that AI psycho
psychosis, you see it everywhere. Like
you see so many people's posts and you
just like you know exactly where they
are on this journey.
>> Oh wow. uh like if they start talking
about multiple accounts like they have
multiple codeex accounts or mo multiple
cloud subscriptions or they're talking
about leaving them running overnight
like that kind of stuff you can just go
back and remember exactly the frame of
mind you were in when you kind of like
went down that path.
>> This is fascinating.
>> Yeah. Say more about those things Adam
because I I don't do any of those things
cuz they they seem very distracting to
me with my family. So I've actually I've
avoided this version. Well, I'm I'm a
very intense like obsessive person, so I
think I ran the whole thing kind of on a
speedrun. Like I it maybe normally isn't
so intense and it takes longer and maybe
it's not so disruptive to your life, but
I mean it led for for me to like a
month-long complete burnout. I mean it
was like I was very intensely down this
rabbit hole. Uh and I think it started
with like it's like so I played a lot of
golf in my past and the thing about golf
it's such an expensive sport. It's such
a pain in the ass in so many ways. like
it's just extremely difficult. Like
you're just constantly chasing balls all
over the the woods and everything. Uh
but you'll hit like one good shot every
round and that'll get you coming back.
Like you'll have that moment where
you're like, "Oh, I'm coming back
tomorrow because golf is amazing."
>> And that I think that's what it was like
5.2 era, one of those models just put
out enough really like this is a cool
output. It was something that kind of
got me hooked that dopamine of seeing it
do something that you're like I I could
I might have done it that way. Like
that's that was awesome. That kind of
started the well then I'm going to re
review it less like I'm not looking at
the code as hard. I'm like doing because
those models were so slow you start have
to do all these weird like
parallelization optimizations like
you're you're running work trees and
you're doing all this stuff because
you're waiting 10 minutes for it to
finish.
>> Uh so then you start work for those that
don't know it's just like cloning out
your uh work folder into another one
that's just like a different branch of
git. So you can actually be editing, you
know, two different folders, two
different git branches at the same time
for one project.
>> I thought we were back on the golf
analogy. So that's Thank you, Prime.
That's awesome.
>> Yeah, the ball is off trees. Can I say
for a really good strategy to enjoy golf
more, this is what my mom does when she
golfs, is sometimes she doesn't even
write down the stroke count for the the
like that hole, but she will just put a
little star if it made a nice sound and
got in the air and she says that was a
good hole.
>> So like and she has fun when she goes
golfing.
>> That's what I'm saying. You're not
breaking any course records, guys. Okay?
You're not breaking any course records.
You put
>> Have you Have you met TJ's mom, Happy
Gilmore? Uh really nice uh effort.
>> Really really fun to golf with.
>> Anyway, sorry. Continue, Adam.
>> Uh yeah, where was I? I guess like uh
that's that's when it started. So it was
like had a few outputs that really
compared to the what I was experiencing
with the anthropic models just felt like
this thing's so much smarter. And then
you just start to like uh assign so much
intelligence to this thing that maybe it
just got lucky. Maybe it was just the
exact right thing uh that it needed to
solve and it solved it really well.
Anyway, it it yeah, it led to like I
mean I would be running, you know, four
or five of these things at a time and
I'm sure there's people listening to
this that have gone deeper than this and
they're like rookie numbers or whatever.
Uh you'd have like all these work trees
and you're just doing like endless
refactors that are completely pointless
like or like doing audits like for
performance stuff. I'm sure people are
going to resonate with this. Like you
are in AI psychosis. If you're hearing
this and you're like wait I do that
every day. It's called AI psychosis.
>> Okay.
>> You're just like the same
>> recording an ad and it's like a Sarah
McLaclin like this if this is you AI
psychosis
>> and I remember seeing other people
during the in the height of it for me
like through the winter December
January. I remember seeing other people
say things online and you'd be like yeah
he gets it and like what he gets is he
also has but they'd be saying things
like they'd say things like I can't
sleep. I just can't like and that was
me. I couldn't hardly go through night.
I have my laptop in the bedroom and I'd
wake up because I want to start another
prompt. Like I literally couldn't think
of it like going the next 30 minutes
without doing more work. And it's
totally nonsensical and and like just
insane to look back on and think that I
was in my right mind. I wasn't.
>> Uh can I can I jump in? By the way, for
if you don't know uh Casey uh Mark I
just watched a Mark Andre clip and he's
talking about uh AI vampires. Like this
apparently is super popular in the
valley where you are effectively ruining
your entire sleep cuz all night you're
reprompting your agents then going back
to sleep and then waking up in 20
minutes to make sure they're all still
running and then going back like just
totally destroying your brain and your
life over being productive. It's like
people people debating whether they
should get into the polyphasic sleep and
stuff like I'm going to sleep five times
a day for 20 minutes each like it was
>> Adam if you do that it's kind of like
you have six days and if you think about
it you stack that up over one month I'm
going to kick your butt.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Sorry. UH IF PUT THE CLIP IN JOSH
PUT THE CLIP IN.
>> So I measure time. I've compressed and
condensed time. I've bent it. My day is
6:00 a.m. to noon. And I'm not crazy.
You're crazy for thinking it takes 24
hours. just like some dude in a cave did
300 years ago. My second day starts at
noon and goes till 6 p.m. That's day
two. And then the next day is 6:00 p.m.
to midnight. What I've done now is I
have changed a manipulated time. I now
get 21 days a week. Stack that up over a
month. I'm going to kick your butt.
>> That sounds excellent. I have no idea
what I don't think he was joking. I
don't think he was joking. So I I I do
want to say on the like the the AI
psychosis part of like waking up and all
this stuff, this is like not that
different from a bunch of other things
where people like people do insane stuff
to like play slot machines or do a bunch
of you know what I'm saying? Like
sometimes
>> coin back when I was trading it in like
2012 2013 I I was losing sleep.
>> When you didn't hold Yeah. Right.
>> Sounds a little bit like World of
Warcraft too originally. I remember
people had problems with that where they
would just kind of like they would stop
leaving the house and they would just
Okay. Yeah. Like
>> a pattern.
>> Yeah.
>> So, so Adam, like um how does this start
exactly though? Like because is it were
you seeing particularly good like
improvements in productivity or was it
really just it was just the fact that
you liked seeing that the AI could do
something and so you felt like there was
something to like to go after there and
you just couldn't help yourself but do
that even though it wasn't necessarily
like oh my god I'm getting all this much
more work done.
>> I think it's the latter. I think you
would you would convince yourself of the
former to justify it like this is so
much more productive. I'm getting so
much done.
>> I see.
>> Uh but I think it really is just like
that prompt and dopamine cycle. You
would you'd submit a big prompt, you'd
come back and see the results and it's
just the slot machine thing. It's like
did it do a good job?
>> Uh and then you get into and I'm sure
there's people that get into these with
LLMs even outside of coding. Like I'm
sure I mean you people falling in love
with models and stuff. I'm sure it's a
similar phenomenon or just a sicko what
is it? Sick of pants whatever
sick of pants.
>> Sick of pants. I don't know.
>> Sick of pants. That's
>> I love shorts though.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. They're they're clearly like
>> they're clearly engineering.
>> I'm from the Ozarks. Okay.
>> We don't use big words.
>> All right. Uh
they're clearly engineered to like give
us that reward cycle. Like there it's
it's probably no different than any
other thing you can get addicted to. And
I get addicted to things very easily and
then very hard when I do. So
>> that's really interesting. So uh what
was like the worst point of this? Like
like what So at some point you decide
you're like you selfdecide you have a
problem I guess like were you the first
person to go I have a problem?
>> Uh
>> or did somebody tell you?
>> You know I mean my wife probably would
have first noticed uh
>> what was a sign that you were having a
problem? Like what did she point the
sleep stuff?
>> Yeah. What' she say? The Yeah, the sleep
stuff is the big thing for me cuz I I've
struggled with staying asleep for work.
Just before all this, you know, for my
entire career, I would it felt like
Christmas morning every day. Like I'd
sleep four or five hours a night and
want to get up to work on the thing
because like I get a big something out
of of programming and and building
things. Uh so I've always struggled with
sleep and we had to in the last couple
years really like build some boundaries
around I'm going to sleep eight hours a
night or I'm going to stay in bed at
least. Uh, so when it started
interrupting my sleep that I think
that's probably the first sign that drew
attention from my wife. Nobody really
like nobody I work with, I don't
remember Dax or anybody that works
closely with me saying like, "Hey, I
think you're you're losing your mind."
Uh, I think it was probably just the
burnout. Like I the first real like
something has to change is I didn't want
to wake up in the morning. And that's
like very rare for me. I'm just I'm I'm
a morning person. when I start sleeping
till like 7 7:30 I know something's
wrong and yeah it was it had just driven
me into this kind of like very hard
burnout that nothing I've never
experienced anything like it in my
career not not to this extent I've had
burnout where for a couple days I'm like
I want to work on something else but not
where I don't even want to get up or I
don't want to work like it's just a it's
always been like an obsession of mine so
>> quick question was just just so I really
understand it for you it was the
it was the pursuit of making the AI have
the hole in one
and it just didn't happen. So, you just
kept pursuing this like feeling of like
the perfect commit, the perfect prompt,
the perfect tier.
>> Or was it?
>> I think I just I don't think it ever
stopped doing what I was looking for. I
think I just physically mentally wore
myself out to the point that I had to
stop.
>> Like,
>> okay. I don't I don't think anything
clicked for me
>> when we were talking about it, Adam. I
thought like one of the things that I
remember you saying was just like
the company you were at before had like
less of a like direct competitor. So it'
been like a while since like you're
working on open code. There's like you
know a trillion dollars floating around
of people trying to
>> take every user of course and things
like that. So some of it, if I recall,
you were just like, "Oh, there's like a
trillion things for us to build and I
want to build this and I want to build
that and we need to build all the things
at once AND OH MY GOODNESS, I CAN BUILD
ALL the things at once cuz I have AI."
Like that was the impression that I got
when we were talking about it a while.
>> Yeah, it's a very competitive field
right now. I mean, a lot of people
trying to figure out how they can be the
ones that shape programming henceforth.
Uh so yeah, I'm not used to that. I'm
not used to having any competitors, let
alone a hundred of them I can look at on
Twitter every day. So yeah, Twitter was
or X was a big part of also mental
health drain. Uh all of it kind of came
together with the AI psychosis to kind
of drive me into a hole and it forced me
to stop. I mean I didn't work for a
month like I've never done that in my
career. Uh five weeks even I think and
that was enough time to get some
perspective uh to not interact with LLM
for a while. It's kind of like you start
looking at it all very differently. Uh
once you get kind of snapped out of that
that
>> can can you tell us what you did during
those five weeks? like so just no
Twitter, no LLMs or no programming.
>> Well, he was he was he was tired of he
he it was affecting him negative
psychologically to go on X and see all
these competitors. So he moved to Blue
Sky where he wouldn't be scared of
competitors anymore.
>> No, I actually Yeah, I was pretty I was
pretty off pretty.
>> No, that's good. I do have a Blue Sky
account.
>> Okay, there you go. Partially true.
PARTIALLY TRUE. GET OFF THE podcast this
podcast official.
>> I don't use it. I don't know.
>> I have one. I I try to cross post on
there sometimes. I'm just kind of lazy
about it. I I don't I want people to be
able to get stuff wherever they want it,
right? So,
>> yeah.
>> Anyway,
>> yeah, I was uh for that I mean for that
five weeks, the first couple weeks I was
really sick. My whole family, we just
get sick because my kids are in school
and that that just happens.
>> And the veganism.
>> True.
>> And the veganism. Yeah. Uh so I was a
couple weeks just like holed up in bed,
watched Netflix for the first time in
years. That was interesting. Uh,
Breaking Bad's pretty good. I'd never
watched Breaking Bad and like everybody
talks about Breaking Bad, so I was like,
gonna watch Breaking Bad. Anyway, uh, I
watched some Netflix and then I would
say the the last few weeks a lot of time
golfing, ironically. Got back into golf.
Uh, just hang out with my wife. We
played a lot of tennis while the boys
were still in school. Uh, just a lot of
time offline. It was It was the most
offline I think I've been Yeah. in my
career. So, in 15 years.
How are you feeling now?
>> I feel amazing. Uh yeah, so I came back
uh I'm just now getting started working
on some stuff again with the open code
team and it was like I feel like I came
back right as the team the team one just
grew a lot. Uh, so we just hired a bunch
of people and I've kind of seen how a
lot of the team members have found a
healthy way to work with AI and like
just seeing their perspectives on how
they use it to kind of like to like
generate better code and focus on like
spending more time trying to drive
toward a given outcome as opposed to go
really fast, cover a lot of ground, like
all the kind of stuff that that I got
into that was so unhealthy. Uh so kind
of like going more into the craft and
trying to go back to we're just going to
get to really good outcomes and and use
these tools to get us to better outcomes
than we would have taken the time to get
to before. Uh so yeah, it feels like
most the team has kind of converged on
this very healthy way to approach AI
coding and that's been helpful like I
can kind of reframe how I view this
stuff. It's still a little scary. Like I
don't know like am I just one prompt
away from
just like crazy obsession again. I I
hope not. Uh but yeah, it's felt good.
It's been like a week and a half now
I've been back.
>> Is there anything that starts to kind of
trigger that feeling? Like is there a
specific type of response or something
that you can feel yourself drifting
towards or is it just all general usage?
>> I don't know. I uh I don't really feel
like I'm going to go back at this point.
And I feel like it's some kind of hype
cycle thing where once you're on the
other side of that peak, you're you're
probably like you have the perspective
you're not going to fall back into it,
but uh yeah, I don't I can't say for
sure. I guess I don't know really what
triggered it the first time. I just
think it was kind of like feeling that
this thing is more intelligent than the
previous models. And so maybe that's it.
Maybe some new model comes out and right
all the hype that happens and all the
excitement and it does something some
unique thing that the other models
always failed at and you're like, "Oh my
god, this one this one's it.
It's here to save us all.
>> Walk us through. You get a new ticket,
Adam. How are you going to fix how how
does that go now? I'm interested to
hear.
>> What's a ticket?
>> You know, an issue on GitHub or
something that you want to go fix. Yeah.
Not like for speeding,
>> Adam. For developers like Tee where when
they ship code, they get a lot of these
issue reports on it. You're you're
probably not as familiar with that.
>> Big fan. Big fan. I get a lot of
tickets. Uh my boss keeps sending them
to me. He says we have AI. He's making
10x the tickets. He's coding now, too.
So that's really fun.
>> People seem to think it's like traffic
tickets, but no, it's like raffle
tickets. The more you have, the more you
win. That's how it works.
>> It's a 50/50 raffle. Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> Well, I think for for one thing, like
the models have gotten so much faster.
So the GPT models, which I only really
use those. I don't really use anthrop
anthropic models have always been fast
but now they're fast enough that you
don't really have to do the whole
paralyze thing like you don't you don't
feel like you're wasting 10 minutes if
you prompt and then just wait for it
like used to it took so long you kind of
needed something else going on.
>> Uh so I've I've stopped the parallel
stuff. I'm not trying to do anything
like that and just kind of focusing on a
single task. Uh getting on Discord like
we've just got so much going on in our
team channels now we've grown that we're
20 people or whatever. Uh so in between
prompts I can kind of catch up with the
team or do stuff that I need to do on
the open source side. That that's been
the healthy approach I think is just not
trying to like just having a perspective
that like more code being slung into the
codebase is not more productive. That's
not the goal. Uh because you start to
kind of feel like how much can I output
or how much can I churn? How big of a
diff can I create every day? uh that
kind of you know it like in your right
mind you know that that's not it but
like in the middle of it for some reason
that starts to become this like game you
feel like there's this super it's Gary
Tan on on Twitter like you just start to
you can relate with uh or I can relate
with all the things he says where you
can just see the AI psychosis so clearly
like start to feel so powerful like I'm
amazing
>> I'm going to need a new USBC cord that's
how I'm going on this thing
>> a lot of tokens that was going to be my
followup question actually Casey was how
many USBC cords did you go through
during that
>> I don't even know if Adam gets the joke
>> I don't actually yeah now I feel really
embarrassed
>> I don't think it was while you were
offline but there's a great
>> which we still are trying to determine
we cannot figure out is it satire or not
we don't know um but Gary Tan made a
post about how like guys
>> burning through so many tokens with
clawed code over here and my USBC cable
burned turned up. Does anyone know what
the rating is for tokens on these bad
boys?
>> I have I uh I luckily have it actually
on quick pullup on the app that I of
course vibe coded. I have my own Gary
section and this is it right here. Is it
possible I use quad code so much somehow
my USBC connectors burned out on my
MacBook Pro. Two of mine are dead and
won't charge and now the third maxes out
at 15 watts. Now I'm afraid my code
Tamagotchi is about to die.
So, you know, Adam, maybe you didn't go
far enough into AIS. Maybe maybe you
only saw the first the first circle of
AI psychosis.
>> Gary Tan is down there in the center.
>> Yeah.
>> The only problem with my current
perception of Gary is I don't think
anybody is smart enough to write satire
that good. So, I don't understand. I
don't understand. It's Anyways,
whatever. Um, so there you go.
>> There's only few world famous comedians
and I just don't know if he is He's one
of them.
>> That's what I'm saying. Like I just
Yeah,
>> he showed up in the lobster suit, dude.
>> That's true.
>> I mean, I don't know. Maybe he's like
way further ahead than we think in terms
of the comedy cycle.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyway, uh, so here's a here's a stupid
question for you, Adam.
Like are you guys gonna add something to
open code that's like if you would like
to turn this on this is an AI psychosis
detector. Like it's like we will we will
put up a thing that's like warning you
have freaking five instances of this
thing running and it's been going for
over 24 hours and we are very worried
that you need to like see a psychologist
right now just you know no judgment just
trying to tell you.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's like the old Wii popup
like maybe you should go outside now.
>> Yeah,
>> take a break.
>> Um I'm not really joking. I was just
like in all seriousness.
>> It's actually brilliant. Yeah, I don't
think we've talked about it, but uh
given my history with it and the damage
it did to my mental health, I it's not a
terrible idea. I kind of like it.
>> It seems like, you know, as long as it's
optin, I can't imagine people would
complain, right? Like
>> it's like, hey, you turn way to like
>> there needs to be a way to like vote for
your friend that it gets turned on. So
like if you know like nine of your
friends like suggest that it gets turned
on for your account then it turns it on
for you.
>> Okay. So open you have to put in like
your your ex handle and Twitter it'll go
like crawl to see who your friends are
and it'll it'll look to see if they
start saying things and it'll go like
okay we're we're turning on the AI
psychosis detector for you.
>> Uh yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Have we thought about just asking the
AIS if they have
>> Yeah.
Is is so is it hard working on a AI
product when you have to detox from AI?
Cuz like it's kind of like it's like
it's kind of like oh I I was a cocaine
addict but I have to work at the at at a
cartel or DA or someone where like
cocaine's around all the time, right?
And you're just like I wanted to try and
get off this stuff but people are asking
like is this pure, you know, like so
>> yeah. you know, you know, that that's a
part that I kind of I feel like I I've
forgotten that that was definitely part
of the psychology of that initial
getting so hard into it because I would
just tell myself like if I'm not using
this, why would I expect anyone else to
use it? So, I kind of like convinced me.
Yeah. Even if I wanted to write
something by hand, I would be like, "No,
I should try and do it with the AI." So,
I think I did kind of get forced into
the reliance and the daily usage of it.
Maybe that led to the obsession. Yeah. I
don't know. I'm a week and a half in.
It's a little scary uh that I'm going to
continue to use these things and I don't
know exactly what it was, you know, that
that triggered it in the past.
>> Are you are you now doing things more by
hand? Is it or is it still like do you
still effectively operate the same or
has any sort of change happened?
>> I mean the change is is mostly just
slowing down and and realizing like the
goal and like what you know what am I
measuring week to week? What's
important? It's not I don't know how
many big PRs I can merge. It's it's more
like outcome based. So, I've definitely
slowed down, but I am I'm mostly just
generating stuff. I'm not writing a lot
by hand. Uh I'm definitely reviewing
like I was in the the beginning. I kind
of got out of that in the middle of the
psychosis where I wasn't even looking at
the code anymore. You're just like
there's no time to read code. We must
keep going.
>> Okay. So,
>> yeah. Oh, go ahead.
>> Oh, go ahead. You can you can go if
you're still going along live cuz I was
going to slightly
>> I was going to I was just going to say
like in in my experience is probably the
person on this call with the second mo
closest thing to AI psychosis uh at any
point. Uh or at least like I use the
models a lot more than Casey for sure
and more than prime. Uh, like if you
stop reviewing for like a week,
sometimes it feels like okay for
something, but then you look back and
you're like, why is there 500 instances
of is record in this codebase? What?
Well, and it's just literally a
function. Function is record type
unknown returns is record type 35. And
like and you're like,
>> okay, if it did that,
>> what else did I not notice in the last
week? Like if it couldn't even figure
out that we have a function called is
record which already we banned from the
codebase and I wrote like some of these
I literally have like eslint style rules
that automatically check the model does
it so often that I like made something
be like this function name is banned we
don't do that function here there there
will be no even if there's an actual
reason to check for is record we don't
do that here um
>> well I'm wondering there the
>> the goal here I think originally was
they're trying to pro provide a tool
that does what programmers generally do.
And so they looked across the code bases
and were like, you know what, most
production code bases have about 15
functions called is record and they all
do the same thing only some of them may
have slight differences so that you
don't get exactly the same depending on
which one you accidentally called. So we
here you go guys, we've delivered to you
exactly what you wanted. Something that
produces code just like you write. Yeah,
it does. In a way, it kind of does feel
like the AI is the most human when it's
[ __ ] Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's like, yeah, that probably
happened in the base code base of this
thing red, right? Like,
>> yeah.
>> Um, but so, but the so like from my, you
know, from my side, like Adam, I'm
wondering if a lot of it now is more
like
>> it's just about like as a human, I can't
focus on 10 things deeply at the same
time like right. So like when I thought
I could do like if you thought you could
run 10 agents simultaneously focus all
them deeply like that doesn't really
that doesn't make sense with my
experience or like the people that I
know. So then it's like
is it just that now you feel like your
brain it stays turned on the whole time
you're focusing on one thing like even
though maybe the LLM still writing a lot
of the code for certain tasks like
that's the main difference like that's
I'm trying to sort of piece out where
you think like that that's the
distinction. Uh, man, I don't know. The
the the tell for me is like I sleep
fine. So, I don't know exactly
>> like when that would go if you know what
would be the first signs I would notice
that I'm slipping back into it. You guys
had me a little worried to be honest now
that I've talked through the whole
thing. Like I'm a little a little on
edge that
>> we'll be on the lookout for you. Don't
worry.
>> Yeah, please do. That's the other thing.
I don't know like nobody really said
anything to me. I don't remember people
being like, "Hey, I think you have a
problem with this AI code." To be fair,
we couldn't see what your sleep uh
schedule was if you share me your uh if
you share me your Google Fit analytics
or something. I can be on the lookout
for you.
>> That's right. We'll monitor your sleep
your sleep schedule and and email you a
big brother.
>> I'm just going to do a quick I'm just
going to take a quick 15 hours to build
a quick agent to be able to monitor you
if that's a deal for you.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so I actually I do have some real
questions which is you know
>> what was what WERE OUR QUESTIONS? OUR
OUR QUESTIONS. I WAS ASKING REAL
QUESTIONS.
>> OKAY. I have realer questions, buddy.
All right. These are some real
hard-hitting questions. Um, okay. Real
question here coming in hot. With
>> with your life, your life is a bit
unusual. And I'm not just talking about
being a vegan. Like if you look over a
lot of the people between the ages of 22
to 30 right now, they don't have uh
they're not married. They don't have
kids. They don't have kind of this kind
of more wellestablished kind of road.
They don't have muscles. They don't they
eat red meat regularly. They're probably
on ad roll. They don't have like a lot
of um
>> they don't have this person.
This is like 85% of the valley, right?
I'm like spot on calling on.
>> So far, this is a real question. This is
>> I love how my my questions were just
these fake fake loser questions and the
crime comes in with this description of
the average person
I don't even know where I don't know
where is that is Nebraska is it Silicon
Valley where where is that person eating
red meat no has no muscles or just a fat
blob but oozes along the the ground like
what what what is this idea what the
valley's like anyways
>> can somebody please take what he just
said feed it into like midjourney and
see what comes out as the drawing and so
we could post it here right to see WHAT
WHAT IS FRANK TALKING ABOUT.
>> OKAY, I want it I want Prime's question
though just if someone can in the
comments leave the LinkedIn version of
this question
all saying they want versions. I want
like a cartoon version where it's like
the drawing in the in the guitar music
like drawing the person as I speak.
Okay. So, this like the average the
average developer right now does not
look like your life. Like I'm just going
to throw that out there. I don't think
the average young person typically has
this type of life, a house, stability,
family, kids, all that kind of stuff,
right? Just all all by statistical
purposes, everyone is getting married
significantly later, having kids way
later. How do they and also friendships
are completely like cratering right now.
So, how do they have the same people
that can speak into their life or how do
they recognize that they're in
psychosis? Like, what is your advice for
somebody who right now is jacked out of
their mind Silicon Valley vampiring
right now, but they have nobody to speak
into their life? Like, what would what
would you say or how would you say for
them to recognize that they're in a bad
place?
>> Uh, man, I mean, to recognize it, I
would say, yeah, it's it's looking at
your your health. Are you abandoning
habits you had before? This is basic
like addiction stuff. Uh if you're like
choosing to do this to to send prompts
instead of, you know, working out or
whatever you were doing before that was
healthy, that's a problem. Uh in terms
of like how it play, I mean, I didn't
have somebody intervene. I just kind of
like it ran its course. Like
>> you said you had your wife be like,
"Bro, you're not sleeping anymore and
you're bringing your you're bringing
your laptop to bed. I don't really like
this."
>> Yeah. And once we stopped that, once
that became like, no, we're not going to
have we're not going to have that going
on. I think it did start to get a little
better. Uh, but it didn't really prevent
the burnout. Didn't prevent me crashing
pretty hard because I mean, I stay here
for eight hours a day. It's the it's the
cocaine thing. It's like I am going to
go to work today and like that's going
to be an exposure that is going to keep
the thing going. So, I don't know if
like if intervention is a thing that's
all that because like for every one
friend that if you did have one that
told you, "Hey, I think you're going a
little hard on this." you can find like
10 people online that are like, "No,
man. You're not you're not going hard
enough. Like, you got to go harder." Uh
because it's very much a culture right
now. And I think like that that typical
especially if you're talking about a
developer from Silicon Valley, like I
think they're immersed in a a group that
thinks this is
>> this is how work looks now. Y uh so
yeah, I don't know. I think it just kind
of has to play its course. I don't
really know that you're going to get
talked out of it.
do a post, tag Ryan Flurry and see if he
says delete your account in the reply.
Like that's a pretty good metric of
>> I would be I would be honored. Yeah. You
know, and like that would be my like if
he says that's chill, you're good. You
don't have it.
>> Yeah, that's a good point.
>> Yeah,
>> that's a good point.
>> Just put CC Ryan Flurry at the end of
your tweets. And and if he replies,
"Delete your account." Then you know you
got
>> psychosis done.
>> The official diagnosis.
>> I would say I would say
>> you go to the doctor and you're like,
"Uh, sorry. I just I got to delete your
account from Ryan Flurry today. I'm I'm
worried that I'm really in trouble like
that. My
>> I I'll I'll give you I'll give you
another test of maybe a more serious one
that I think you can do. If you find
yourself agreeing with everything
someone who has a large monetary
incentive reason to sell you on, right?
Like, oh, Anthropic says all of software
dev is cooked in six months from now.
There will be no reason to have skill.
And then you look at their website and
they're spending a bunch of money hiring
people and you say, "But I agree with
what they're saying in the in the in the
pitch. That's like a good that should be
a little at least tickle in the back of
your mind that like hm maybe the
billions of dollars that they have on
the line are an incentive for them to
mislead me and make me be in a bad you
know I think that that's like that's an
easy one to see online if you're
agreeing with everything Daario says
that's bad guys that's bad
yeah there's definitely a flavor of it
like there's a flavor of the psychosis
these types that I don't I don't
understand really like what would
motivate someone to be so like uh
aligned with technology in general. It's
like
>> if you try to say anything bad about AI
or about you know what's going on with
the big model labs like they're there to
defend and they're just like this random
account on X like they clearly have
something going on in their brain.
>> Uh just like technology enthusiasts or
something and maybe this predates the AI
psychosis. Maybe this was going on.
>> Oh yeah, it happened with like Vim and
and programming languages. Defending
technology has happened forever. like
this is definitely nothing new, but I
will say that the uh the ferveny of it
is is unique in the sense that uh with
like zero zero is a good good example of
this. There was somebody in the comments
was like, "Man, zero's awesome. I can't
wait to try it." It's just like, "Okay,
how can it be awesome and you've never
tried it?" Like, there is like something
so broken to this entire idea. Like,
this doesn't make any sense. Like you're
so glued to whatever they send you that
you're like, "This is the best thing
ever. I will now try it and it will be
the best thing ever." Right? Like that
is definitely some form of reality mis
misststepping there.
>> Uh I have a question.
>> Is it also is it a real one, Casey, or
is it just kind of like a throwaway? No
fake. It's a it's only a half and half
question since cuz I don't really know
like this is not my this is not my these
are not my monkey circus right like
there this is a whole I don't know
anything about any of this right
>> but I wanted to ask like would it also
be a good sign since we're talking about
signs
>> if you start really getting excited
about the Gstack
>> so would that be a good would that be a
good sign that maybe you've gone to if
you're like oh my god of the Gstack.
>> Is anyone really excited about that?
>> I don't know, but I feel like
>> I mean, that would definitely
>> I I mean, I have I have received not
just one, but we're talking about dozens
of comments being like, "This bro is
just angry because his skills have been
reduced down to an MD file that Gary,
you know, like that kind of stuff." So,
>> okay. All right. Well, okay. But to be
fair, like for you,
>> I mean, yeah. I'm just saying for me
it's okay, but like Casey, he he can't
reduce him down to an MD.
>> I think uh why is there no PAC prime?
Why Why haven't you made a
>> No, you're going about this all wrong. I
>> I'm not even joking. Why have you not
made a competitor to the Gstack called
PAC on stream? I would watch the heck
out of that.
>> Okay, to be fair, I am in the process
and I've been experimenting for the last
couple months making Prime Agent.
>> Okay, there we go. That's all I want to
hear. That's all I needed to hear. Yeah,
it's it's a different it's a different,
you know, take on the whole thing.
>> Okay.
>> I would also say it's uh finding like
the P stack is not as sort of like
mythical as finding the G stack.
>> Okay.
>> So, it's
Yeah, less to brag about.
>> Yeah, it's not that big a deal.
I I said I I couldn't imagine people I
think I'm just not imagining programmers
who are like taking Gary Tan seriously,
but there probably is a group of like
business pros, like the non-technical
folks that are like Gary's on to
something and and they probably are
impressed. So, yeah, that would be a
that would be a tell.
>> So, uh I guess like we we should
probably wrap up here, right? I mean,
Adam, what's uh what's the closing? Like
what's
>> I guess your your takeaway kind of
sounds like you're not sure yet. Like
it's like it's like we're kind of just
in the early stages of this and like
you're gonna come on in six months and
tell us what actually happened. I guess
sort of.
>> Yeah. I mean I think Yeah. I think my
particular story is still being written.
Uh it's possible.
>> It's possible. I fell back into it. I
just imagine it though like the hype
cycle like the
>> I just imagine that's kind of what
everybody goes through. you go through
this crazy peak where you're like this
is god technology and then eventually
you fall off and now I'm on that slow
steady climb of trying to figure out how
to make this stuff actually help me
dayto-day. Uh so I I think that's the
long kind of healthy journey I'm on
right now. That's my hope.
>> I think you're going to do great Adam.
>> Yeah, thanks T. Appreciate that. Boot up
the day.
V coating errors on my screen.
Terminal coffee
and
living the dream.