to me. I'm going to give you a hug.
>> You were going in for it. You were going
to fight for it.
>> Today, I'm talking to Elizabeth Gilbert.
She's got a new memoir out and it gets
dark. There were times when I was
reading this where I put my book down
and I was like, "This is the Eat, Pray,
Love. Eat, Pray, Love. Julia Roberts
played her in the movie."
Oh, what a beautiful word. So today, Liz
is here to tell me about how that woman,
a woman who thought she'd found
enlightenment and inner peace almost
destroyed her own life. Here's our
conversation.
[Music]
Elizabeth Gilbert, welcome to Modern
Love.
>> Thank you. I am so happy to be here. We
are so happy you're here in the studio
with us. So Liz, you are the author of
the best-selling 2006 memoir, Eat, Pray,
Love. Uh this is all about your search
for inner peace following a painful
divorce. You ended up marrying the guy
you wrote about in Eat Pray Love and
writing a second book about this
decision to commit uh to marriage again
and now you have a new memoir out. It's
called All the Way to the River. And it
tells the story of how you ended that
marriage to then start a romantic
relationship with your best friend Rehea
right as she was dying of cancer, which
I mean, what a mix of emotions to
experience at once. You must have been
running through journals like once a
week. How are you processing all of
that?
>> Oh god. Yeah, I was running through
journals once a week and it was like the
ground fell out from underneath me. And
I feel like that's an experience that I
now recognize as being a universal human
experience. Like maybe not to those
exact details, but I don't think anybody
gets to go through
>> the entire course of their life without
having seasons or chapters or episodes
of their life where it's like, "Oh, I
thought there was ground under me my
feet and there is none." and yeah, it
was incredibly disorienting
>> um and
felt to me at the time extremely sudden
and unexpected.
>> Looking back on it now with the benefit
of hindsight, I can see Yeah, I can kind
of see it more slowly now, but at the
time it felt like
>> whiplash. How did I get here?
>> Yeah. How did I get here?
>> Let's talk a little bit about how you
got here. This relationship with Rehea,
I mentioned you you ended your marriage.
You and Rehea were best friends for many
years. Talk about what it was like to
start a romantic relationship with
someone who was one of your closest, if
not your closest friend.
>> She was more than my closest friend. I
mean, she was our the only way that we
could ever describe each other for many
years was this is my person.
>> Um, and and it was a slow, you know, it
was a slow burn. We met as hairdresser
and client. I love this,
>> you know, and then became social friends
and then neighbors and then sort of each
other's muses and each other's
inspiration. I I dedicated the book Big
Magic to her. I wrote it. I wrote the
entire book for her.
>> Um, and she, you know, I inspired her to
write music. I inspired her to write a
memoir. She inspired me to write that
book. We became each other's, you know,
emergency contacts. And all of this was
happening while I was also in a marriage
that I cared about a lot with somebody
who I loved a lot. But as time went by,
it was like, "Oh, this is more than like
the feelings that I have for her are
very inconvenient."
>> That's not the word I thought you were
gonna say.
>> It's like is so inconvenient. Like cuz
I'm really in love with my best friend.
>> And I am really good at
compartmentalizing. So I just
compartmentalized that right into the
basement of my consciousness. And I was
like, "This will stay there forever.
>> There's a lock. There's no need to know
that. I don't even need to know this. I
put this so far away that I can't even
see it." M
>> um and then she was diagnosed with
terminal pancreatic and liver cancer and
given 6 months to live at which point it
was no longer possible for me to keep
that kept in the basement. It just had
to come out and I knew that I had to
spend the last months of her life with
her as as her partner and that's so in a
way there was something like this is the
person I know best in the entire world.
So there was something so deeply
familiar about her and then as the book
tells it's like oh there was all this
other stuff I didn't even know about
like how can the person who you think
you know the best in the world turn into
somebody who
is a danger to you. So in many ways the
book is a is like the word I keep using
is forensic. It's it's a forensic
>> exploration to try to answer
>> in the safety of the present moment why
the chaos of the past occurred.
>> Huh. Talk more about that word for what
does that forensic mean to you?
Detailed.
>> Yeah. It means unflinching.
>> Um you know like let's just really find
out what occurred um and how. And I feel
like it required a kind of reporting to
to write this book. And I had all my
journals from that time as well, but
also a deep psychological investigation
into myself and into Rehea, including um
Rehea had left me almost as clues all of
her journals and diaries that she wrote
during that time. And she was like, "Use
these." Like, "I want you to have this."
>> Explicitly she said that.
>> Yeah. And in those journals and diaries,
I found out that she had been she was an
addict in recovery. By the time I knew
her, when I first met her in the year
2000, she'd been clean for a few years
from years of heroin and drug and
cocaine addiction. But somewhere in that
time between when I met her and we got
closer, she started secretly drinking.
And then she started publicly drinking,
but with weird sort of
>> You write about this. Yeah.
>> Like very very weird sort of hiding like
hiding in plain sight. And this was
before you'd entered into your romantic
relationship. Um, but what I discovered
in reading her journals was that the
same demons that had driven her to her
addiction in the first place were alive
and well and hiding behind this mythos
that she created that I 100% fell for.
And I and I when I say that she did
this, it's all very innocent, you know,
like she was just trying to survive,
right?
>> But she could present as the most
confident person you've ever met in your
entire life. as can I.
>> She jumped off the definitely,
>> but she jumped off the page that she was
so vibrant and
>> she made me want to follow her like
that's and I was reading about her. I
hadn't I haven't met her obviously in
person, but that really came across.
Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that
because one of the obstacles that I felt
I faced in writing this was can I
describe how vivid this person was
convincingly because
>> she was such an electrifying presence
and she was like she just she was
amazing. She was a star, you know, um
and she was brilliant and she was funny
and most of all she was fearless is how
it how it appeared. And she particularly
had fearlessness in realms of my life
where I'm very afraid. And I had
fearlessness in realms of her life where
she was very afraid. So she was she was
incredibly fearless around people and
conflict no problem. Like go right into
the arena with anyone, toeto toe with
anybody. Would say the thing that nobody
else would say. I don't know why this is
coming, but in the book there's this
this lovely, it's just a small scene,
but you were at a dinner and she was
seated next to someone who was very
annoying, and she said to him something
like,
>> "You're a jackass." Or something like
that.
>> She said to him, "Wow, I never knew what
a little [ __ ] you could be."
>> Um, and and she just said it very like
casually and the whole like and he was
being a little [ __ ] you know, and
she's like, "Sometimes people are little
bitches." She's like, "Dude, I like
literally never knew what a little [ __ ]
you are." And um and and it just but it
was also true, you know, and it's like
we were all thinking it, you know, and
somehow he kind of loved her more
>> for that because oddly and I know this
might be hard to convey, she wasn't
judging him. She was just making an
observation.
>> Totally. I mean, I knew I liked her more
when I
>> She was like, I'm a little [ __ ]
sometimes, too, man. And that's why
people always felt really safe with her
is that she she you always knew where
you stood with Rya. And and when I asked
her one time why you're not afraid of
anybody, she's like, I'm so much scarier
than anyone.
>> Wow.
>> And my darkness and my demons are
scarier than anything I've ever seen. So
no one scares me cuz it's like if I can
handle me, I can handle you. Did this
relationship feel different from
previous romantic relationships in your
life?
>> Yeah. And it's because of that honesty
that um
Excuse me,
>> please.
>> I said to burp,
>> I do that all the time. And I
>> Pardon me.
>> God, no. No, it's picked up in high
fidelity.
>> Great. That one's for the the ages. Um
>> it did feel different. It it did feel
different and it was because of the
radical honesty that the Rehea who I
fell in love with lived in. And
how can I say this? Like there aren't
many people who say
the truth who want it.
>> Yeah.
>> And who when they say there will be no
judgment or punishment for this truth,
they mean it. So the safety of like, you
know, my favorite version of Rehea was
the one who would just look at you and
just be like, "What is it? What's the
thing that's happening right now? I see
something in your face that's going on
that you're not saying.
>> Like, I don't need your zipped up self
was one of her favorite lines.
>> And a friend of ours at her funeral said
she didn't want your fake self. She
wouldn't allow your fake self.
>> She would go in the cave and dig it out
and be like, "Listen, I smell [ __ ]
There's something you're not telling me.
You're being a little [ __ ] What's
actually going on?" And and that was the
safety that that that was provided. And
I had never experienced that with
anybody.
>> It is. know I really get a sense of that
like I feel that from you as you're
describing it. I felt it in the book and
it's so striking to me that that
enduring totally unique you know sort of
once in a-lifetime safety that you
experience with her could turn into
something that felt so dangerous. This
is a beautiful book of of love and
connection and it's also it goes to some
extremely dark places about addiction
and and and death. And I want to talk
about sort of how things got
progressively
darker and darker for the two of you.
Can you explain how that kind of safety
could transform into something that felt
so unsafe?
>> Yeah. And I want to start by saying that
part of the reason it took me seven
years to write this book is cuz it took
me so long to figure out what happened.
Um because it felt so sudden at the
time, but I know
reality well enough to know.
Well, let me put this this way.
Probably if I'd written this book right
after she died, I would have been like,
I'm a really nice thing person who a bad
thing happened to.
>> I am a really nice person, but and a bad
thing did happen. But we co-created the
circumstances for this. And an early
sponsor of mine in 12step recovery
talking about codependency
said, "Liz, the word codependency has
the prefix coil
right into it, right at the front of it,
keeping it right there where you can see
it."
>> Yeah.
>> You two did this together. Right. So
there was there were a couple things
happening that we were shady that we
were in each in our own way being shady
about. She was hiding her substance
addiction addiction issues by secretly
drinking. She'd also started smoking
again. When we came together, we started
doing psychedelics again. We were
introducing substance substances into
her system. And for somebody who is a
lowbottom drug addict, like a lowbottom
drug addict, like a living on a park
bench in Tomkins Square, multiple times
in jail, multiple times in psych wards,
like super dangerous thing that she was
playing with there to to be altering her
mind with lots of different different
substances and still calling herself
sober,
>> right?
>> It's one thing to be doing it. It's
another thing to be doing it and still
calling yourself sober, right? and going
out on the road
as a like speaking as a sober person,
writing a book about your sobriety when
you're not at all sober.
>> You didn't know any of this at the time?
>> No, because I didn't know anything about
I mean, I knew she was doing those
things, but I didn't know what sober
meant. I didn't know what addiction
meant really.
>> Um, and she was good salesperson for her
own [ __ ] like addicts, right? And I
was an eager believer
>> of every single thing that she did. So,
that was her darkness. And then mine was
that I was slowly making her into my
God. And that feeling of anchoring and
safety in another human being is
something that I've been looking for my
entire life. And so when I found that
feeling, I'm like, "Oh, this is now my
God." Um, which is why I felt like the
bottom fell out of my world when she was
diagnosed because now my God is going to
die. So what do I do as an acolyte to my
God? I serve them. I give my life as
sacrifice to them. I indulge every
single thing that they could possibly
ever want. Right. I set no You don't set
boundaries with a god. Right. Boundary
first of all anyway. What even is that?
>> I'm just trying to think about what that
would look like. Yeah. Setting
boundaries with a God like
>> you don't. I mean I beca So I put myself
in this
>> in this position of servitude
>> and service which was also much more
easily done because she was dying you
know because she had cancer. So it's
like I will be in service to you.
>> Um but any want that you have I will
make like I could not bear for her to
have a want. So anything that she wanted
I would give and provide. And that is
not the first time I have done that.
>> Um didn't turn out to be the last time I
would do it either. So this is my this
is my way of securing what we call in
the rooms of recovery lava. Love,
attention, validation and acceptance.
>> Love, attention, validation and
acceptance.
>> So that's my drug. So if somebody can
provide me with a feeling of that, you
can have my whole entire life,
>> right? And everything that Rya did was
right and everything she believed was
right
>> and she was the answer to every
question.
>> In the moment, you didn't know this,
right? You weren't aware of this. This
was
>> I was like, we're living the greatest
love story the world has ever known.
>> Um, and it felt like that for for a
while. I mean, we got really high off
each other. I certainly got very high
off of her.
>> Um, like if I'm getting lava,
>> what a convenient acronym. It's just
really good. So good. And also, if I'm
getting lava,
>> if you if there's a threat that you
might now withhold it,
>> right,
>> I'm going to die. Like, I will go into
withdrawal. I will go into despair. I
will go into chaos. So, this is what we
were co-creating. And um and so by the
time her pain from
her pain from cancer and her fear of
death got significant enough that she
was given a lot of opioids, which now
she's got opioids in her system. And you
know, when I asked her what it felt like
the first time she took a morphine pill,
she was like, "Hello, old friend." Like
literally, I mean, this is this is that
was the love of her life. Opioids were
the thing that she had always loved and
had longed for for many years. Um, and
then when the opioids started making her
feel really down, she was like, "If I
just add a touch of cocaine to this and
then we were off to the races." And then
from that moment, things did spiral
really fast. Like I would say that from
like a few days after she introduced
cocaine into her system, the Rehea, who
I knew was gone.
>> Yeah. I want to you get the sense of
both how I don't want to say it was
slowm moving but this build towards this
intense love and safety between the two
of you was was more than a decade in the
making correct and then at the same time
it it sort of it does feel like it veers
so quickly which you keep speaking about
having this feeling like this is so
sudden how did I get here and there is a
part of this book that I would love for
you to read that I think kind of
encapsulates how quickly things
>> got extremely bad and extremely dark.
Um, let me get it because we put a
little put a bookmark in here. This is
the moment that you're speaking about
where Rehea is in serious pain. She is
back on drugs. She's back using drugs,
which you're helping to provide for her.
Um, and you feel like you're out of
options. You feel very desperate. You
write, "It was July of 2017 that I came
up with a really good idea for what
would save me from the nightmare I was
now trapped in with Rehea. Can you keep
reading from page 240? Is that okay?
Okay.
>> And at that point too, remember that
she's a hospice patient. So like what
kind of intervention are you going to
have with a hospice patient because she
like you can't say if you keep doing
drugs at this level, it's going to kill
you,
>> right?
>> Cuz it gave her a blank her in a weird
way, her death sentence gave her this
blank check to just use whatever she was
using and she'd become really abusive.
>> Yeah.
>> And um and I felt like I had no way out.
She has to die now, said my exhausted
mind. And suddenly this seemed like a
terrific solution. After all, Rehea was
dying already anyway, right? I just
needed to move the process along before
things got even worse before she set the
whole building on fire with a dropped
cigarette or got us both arrested. She
had to die and I was the one who had to
kill her. I decided I would do it the
next day. I went to sleep that night in
peace knowing that liberation was
finally in sight. I also hadn't slept
for weeks at this point because people
on cocaine don't sleep. So, she was
keeping me awake. Um, I want to make
something extremely clear here. When I
say that I once planned to murder Rehea,
I don't mean that the idea simply
crossed my mind that my life would be
easier if she were gone. I mean that I
fully intended to kill her. And I tell
this story in all its raw honesty
because I want people to understand how
insane codependency can make a person
become. I mean, I'm the nice lady who
wrote Eat, Pray, Love, and I came very
close to premeditatedly and
cold-bloodedly murdering my partner
because she had taken her affection away
from me, and because I was extremely
tired. That's the sort of person I
become when I'm in my insanity.
I mean, you wrote these words. You've
read them many times, but can I ask you
what it feels like to to read?
You know, I get the the thing I feel is
a feeling I had a lot when I was writing
this book, which is
first of all, I'm writing it from the
privileged position of it's over,
you know, and
>> this didn't happen. You did not kill
her. Um and
and the privileged position of healing
not just the trauma of this circumstance
but the trauma that led me to become the
kind of person who would give my life
away to anybody who maybe might take
care of me for a minute.
>> Um and the privilege of sitting on the
other side of six years of sobriety and
recovery and working a program and
codependence anonymous and like all
these things that I've done. So, I'm
sitting pretty comfortably here right
now,
>> right?
>> And one of the things that I talk about
in the book is how careful and I I try
to be very careful in the book
>> to not judge either her or any earlier
version of myself because those people
did not were not sitting comfortably in
that moment,
>> you know, and were just trying to
survive what had become this firestorm
of trauma. And
that was what we call in the rooms my
best thinking on that day.
>> Like, and what Rehea was doing was her
best thinking on that day. Like, that's
what we were down to. Like, just this is
our best idea. You know, Rehea's best
idea was like, I'm just going to lock
myself in the bathroom with thousands of
dollars of cocaine and opioids and
fentinol and
steroids, and I'm just going to try to
get my levels right so that I just don't
so that I'm just checked out enough that
I don't have to think about the fact
that I'm dying or be in pain, but not so
checked out that I overdose, you know,
or that like literally I couldn't leave
her cuz I was literally afraid she was
going to burn the building down cuz she
kept falling asleep. with cigarettes in
her hands all over the furniture. It was
really scary, out of control. And and I
see
>> what I feel is is tremendous empathy for
these two suffering people and
gratitude that it didn't go that way
because
the only thing anyone is ever trying to
do is get through the day. Like you can
take a pretty good guess when you look
at literally anyone doing literally
anything that first of all what they're
doing is what they think is a really
good idea.
>> Yeah.
>> They have it's their best thinking and
they did not wake up that morning saying
how can I be the worst possible version
of myself?
>> Like
>> no they woke up being like how am I
going to make it through another day?
And the thing that was so sacred about
that moment that I just read was that
I was able to see, oh, people really are
capable of anything.
>> Like, if I'm capable of murder, um,
anybody is
the person who would love episode if Liz
Gilbert is
>> right. The person who would apologize to
a mugger, right? Like,
>> yeah. Do you see love between the two of
you in that in that passage? I mean, we
just spoke so much about
>> No. Yeah. Okay. I was curious. No. Yeah.
>> No, not in that moment. No. I mean, I
Reya certainly wasn't loving me in that
moment or herself.
>> Um
>> I mean she like sober Rhea if she had
seen herself at that point would have
been like [ __ ] kill her.
>> Like for sure.
>> I just Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> You know, like she would have been like,
"Dude,
like don't let that continue, you know,
like totally get it." Like, you know,
for sure she hat that was the version of
herself she hated the most.
>> Yeah. Like she'd worked really hard to
not be and then towards the end if she
>> she would have been like 5 years earlier
than that Rehea fast forwarding seeing
herself shooting up in a bathroom would
have been
>> it it would have destroyed her
>> and being unkind to someone she loves.
Yeah.
Like she would have hated it. Um and
>> and 5 years earlier version of me
>> seeing me in this scene of total
degradation when I thought I had gotten
my life completely together.
>> And yet that's where we ended up. And
you know they say of addiction it never
rests it only waits. You know and when
the circumstances were right this thing
waited in her and and then arose. And
when the circumstances were right for me
to lose all the work that I had done and
become again a child begging for someone
to take care of them even though they
couldn't, I did that.
>> I mean, we mentioned and it's important
to say you did not go through with the
murder plan.
>> Yes. Just to be clear, um, police I
didn't I didn't kill her.
>> Should we say because it actually is
sort of darkly funny what happens next?
Can you share what
>> Well, what happened next is that same
Rehea who could read the room. always
and who could smell [ __ ] and who had
survived for years on the streets and
survived in prisons and had survived
like she was such a survivor. She may
have appeared to be completely checked
out on drugs, but when I walked into the
apartment that day with a murder plan
um because and my plan was that I was
going to put fentinol patches all over
and then make her take sleeping pills
and kill her. Like I mean literally
that's what I was intending to do.
>> I know I know you mean it literally. I'm
like looking you in the eyes right now
and I'm like really literally but you
really do mean literally like it's not
this is not at all figurative. This was
a plan and sleep deprived. Yes. Like
going through like immense stress.
>> It was a nightmare. I mean it's
>> and and it's
>> I don't even need to justify it. I was
about to say it's unjustifiable but it's
it's
>> it's the reality of where I was in that
moment. It was the only thing I could
think of that I was like, "This is the
only way this is going to end." Like,
"One of us has to die." And and I also
was like, "No, she would approve of
this." And I'm I'm
still not sure I was totally wrong. But
anyway, she she looked up at me from I
walk in the apartment and she looked up
at me from this table, the coffee table
that was like covered with these fat
rails of cocaine and like clouds of
cigarette smoke, bottle of whiskey, like
>> piles of pills that she was sorting. And
she just looked at me and all of a
sudden focused, you know, like all of a
sudden it's like all that dropped and
like her keen eyes came back and no one
could focus. Like when Rya put her
attention on you, you knew that it was
on you. And she looked at me and said,
"Don't you start plotting against me
now, Liz." And I was like, "What are you
a witch?" Like
>> that is pretty wild.
>> It was so cra you know. and we just held
each other's gaze and that and time
seemed to stop and it felt like
somebody had pushed a pause button on
this insane drama that we were in.
>> And then she said, "Think very carefully
about what you're about to do." And it
felt like I actually just got chills
saying it again because it felt like
a moment of divine salvation of like how
far how far are you going to take this?
How far are you, Liz, gonna take this?
I'll show you how far I rehea am going
to take this. I'm going to take this all
the way down to the cellar of myself,
but like are you sure you want to do
what you're about to do?
>> Wow.
>> And um and I just walked out of the
apartment and wandered around as though
I had a head injury for a few hours.
Like so bewildered. And then I thought
my second best thinking, which was like,
"Oh, I've got all of these fentinol
patches and pills. I'll just kill
myself."
>> Because like So because it was like when
I said one of us has to die, I meant it.
Wo.
>> Right. That's how that's how degraded my
spirit had become. Like one of us has to
die. And it was obviously she she wasn't
going to let me
>> not letting you.
>> Oh my god.
>> And also there was a moment with Ry
where I was like, who do I think I am
that I could kill Rhea? Like she was so
tough. Like no. And then I was like,
okay, well then I'll kill me. And then
in that moment was when
this voice came to me. And it's and I
had heard this voice before in my life.
And I call this voice God.
>> Some people would call it higher power,
intuition, the Dao, like maybe it's
ancestors, who knows? But like some
spirit guide, angel, whatever. Like a
voice
>> came to me in that moment and said,
>> "If you have reached a point in your
life where you are seriously
contemplating murdering another person
or yourself,
it's quite likely that you have reached
the end of your power.
And that being the case, maybe you
should call somebody and ask for help,
which was never an idea that had
occurred to me.
>> Never an idea that had occur. I'm like,
I I have I have since learned that
people who
isolate themselves and do not ask for
help when they are in trouble
trained as children that help is not
available. And so when you're trained
that no one's coming,
you just get to become this thing that
they that another term for it is toxic
self-reliance.
>> Um like I another translation of that is
I got this.
>> I'll handle it
>> because I've always had to got this.
Right? So Rehea had that and I had that.
>> Um so she was doing toxic self-reliance
by
>> being like I'll handle this by just
using substances the way that I know
how. I was doing toxic self-reliance by
like if I can't control this entire
situation then somebody has to die.
>> And um and
>> and in that moment it was like oh
there's other people on the planet. And
the thing about falling so deeply into
somebody at the level of infatuation
that I had with Rehea was like what I
want when I'm doing that is for there to
be no other people on the planet. Like I
want to disappear into somebody because
I'm uncomfortable in myself and so I
want to not have to exist
>> and I want there to be no one else
either. So it's just a called like
planet them. I'm just going to disappear
into planet them. And I'd been so sucked
into that with her that
>> I it would have never occurred to me to
ask for help.
>> This is the scene I remember and I was
so struck by. You're in the park, right?
and you just call person after person
after person.
>> Yeah.
>> What did it feel like? Because in doing
so, of course, you're asking for help,
but you're also admitting
>> sort of the the depths to which you and
her and the two of you had had sunk. I
mean, you you write in this excerpt,
you're like, I'm the nice lady that
wrote Eat, Pray, Love. Did Did it feel
like did you recognize yourself sitting
there on that park bench making those
calls, admitting where you were? Yeah.
And that was also part of it, which is
like I've been I've been this degraded
before
>> and I thought I wasn't that person
anymore.
>> What was it about this time that was so
>> It wasn't that this time was different.
It's that this time was exactly the
same.
>> Whoa. Mhm. you know, like where it's
like, oh, once again I have completely
lost myself to somebody and once again
I'm like shattered and and once again
the person who I thought was going to
save me ended up destroying my heart and
I don't even know who I am anymore. And
if it had been the first time or even
the third
>> Yeah.
>> or even the fifth.
>> Do you know the number? I mean, I'm just
curious.
>> I mean, I'll tell you this. I'll tell
you that as low what we call in the room
a lowbottom addict as somebody where the
consequences of their usage is huge.
>> As much of a lowbottom addict as Rehea
was as a drug addict, I am a lowbottom
sex and love addict.
>> Like this is how I this is how I hurt
myself.
>> And so I think that part of the sort of
cascading horror of that was like
>> no no no no, I fixed my life. I was on
Oprah. I'm an expert. And that is the
moment where you first went to your to
the first 12step meetings that you'd
been to, right?
>> I got 12ststepped um by a friend um you
know I mean I was calling to tell like
have people tell me what to do about
Rheea,
>> right?
>> But I had somehow in me the good sense
to call people who have had involvement
with addiction,
>> whether their own or the addictions of
others. And so there were some people
who had some good recovery on those
phone calls and they gave me some very
good guidance and it was all about me.
>> None of it was Did you hear the part?
>> I'm like, "No, did you know though about
the thousands of dollars of cocaine and
the fentinol patches and like the like
the teenagers coming into our apartment
day and night with like piles of drugs?
Like
>> how do we stop that, you know?" And they
all were like, "What are you going to do
to take care of you?" M
>> um and I'm like, "But did you hear how
she's a cancer patient in hospice, you
know, like I can't take care of me. Like
I'm holding the world together." Um so
anyway, a couple people said, "Go to
Alanon."
>> Um and and then one person said,
>> you know, I've watched you now for 25
years do this to yourself. And
there's a program for people like you,
for people with love addiction. There's
programs for people with sex addiction.
And there's programs for people with
codependency issues.
>> And I think the problem might be bigger
than Rehea and maybe you need to think
about that. And that was both insulting
and
maybe revvelatory.
>> That's so clarifying. It sounds like
both. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You begin your recovery
>> in that moment. Um or not in that
moment, but you begin going to meetings
that day. You went to you went to the
>> a meeting that day.
>> Yeah. Oh, you do not waste time.
>> It was that or
>> there was no time to waste.
>> I was going to die.
>> Yeah.
>> You move out.
>> What's happening with Rehea during this
time?
>> So, other people moved in, you know, um
and she was using really hard. She was
also in her own way trying to rein it
in. There were people trying to help
her. There were also people doing drugs
with her. There were people trying to
help her and do drugs with her. you
know, like messy, complicated. Um, but
she ended up calling an ex of hers who
had over the years become one of her
best friends. Um, like a like a family
person. And um, and just said, "Stacy,
I'm in trouble and I need help." And
>> Stacy was amazing. Um, Stacy
was like, "If you can get yourself to
Detroit without getting arrested or
dying,
>> I will help you, but it will be on my
terms and there won't be any of this
stuff that you're doing. Um, we're going
to get you off all of these other drugs
and get you back into proper medical
care." And she actually did.
>> I mean, and that it was it's remarkable
to read about that turn because it
allowed you to be with Rehea when she
passed.
>> Yeah, she came out of it. I mean, I
never, again, going to how little I can
control or understand the world, I was
like, Stacy, that's not going to work.
And Stacy's like, I think it will. And
it
>> and it did. Um, and we got her back.
Like, she came back, not the full Rehea,
but like for somebody who had a couple
months to live pretty much in her own
character and identity again. Before
when you thought about her passing, you
described it like my God would die.
>> Yeah.
>> What was it actually like when she left?
My God died.
>> Okay. Yeah. But my God had died before
she died. That was why it was so
disorienting because
>> I lost my God when she picked up cocaine
and stopped being my hero. And that was
what was where the trauma was for me was
like I was kind of ready for her to die,
but I wasn't ready for her to leave
before she died.
>> And that was where the wounding was in
me. And the wounding was also the great
disorientation of like, wait, who was
this person? Like was she was like was
she this really strong, fierce,
powerful, loving, protective
kind of dragon like or was she this
degraded
>> using manipulative lying junkie?
>> And the answer was yes,
>> you know, and I don't like that answer
because I want a black and white answer.
Yeah. And there isn't one, you know, and
and also like who am I? Am I this good,
loving,
generous,
helpful, encouraging,
peaceful, god-loving,
yogic, creative muse? or am I this like
deeply manipulative
um like controlling
uh clingy, needy, desperate love addict.
And the answer is yes.
>> Um and I don't like that answer either,
you know, because the thing that I don't
want to be is human and the thing I
don't want anybody else to be is human.
>> And yet here we are.
>> We are burping into the mic.
>> Here we are burping into the mic. I want
to burp so you know you're not alone in
the burp. I'm going to do it just so
you're comfortable. Just so you feel
like you're not alone. I will be with
you. I need to work on maybe.
>> I mean it it is it is also true, you
know, and I appreciate this about the
book. It's not like Rehea passes and
then
>> you figure out you're in recovery, you
know, and you're sober. It took a very
long stopped going to recovery after Rya
passed. So I went for a while to some
12step rooms. But when she got I mean
and here's my codependency. when she got
well, meaning
>> sober
>> sober enough to be herself again,
then I'm like, well, I don't need to go
to any 12step rooms because the person
who was the problem in my life is no
longer a problem.
>> That's sort of what I mean by like your
god dying, but it Yeah, but that's not
how it works.
>> Not even a little like I am my own
problem.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I am the consistent problem through
my 35 year uninterrupted run of
relationships where I was constantly
trying to find somebody who I'm the
problem here, right? So, I wasn't
dealing with that and and I had to go
out and do all the things I do, you
know, like, well, I'm going to feel
better by overachieving. I'll write a
novel in 3 months. Like, I'm going to
feel better by traveling. I'm going to
go to India. I'm going to feel better by
falling in love with somebody else.
That's like, I'm going to impale myself
on someone. And who who would like to
volunteer to be myself the next person
that I take hostage with my loving
generosity and kindness, you know, like
who would be like to be volunteer to be
the next person who I try to control
into submission so that you will then
give me lava, right? Like so I did all
those things again that I've always done
and all of those things didn't work and
I bottomed out again and it was only
then
>> where I was like, "Oh, here we are back
on the bathroom floor in tears. Here we
are back." Like, and there gets to be a
weariness, you know what I mean? Like,
even for my readers, it's like, do we
really want to see Liz on the bathroom
floor in tears again? Like,
>> I'm like, I'm there with you, girl.
>> You know, like, and and you know, we get
tired of ourselves. And that's I think
what often leads us to healing is just
like, I can't even stand this story
anymore. You know, you write about your
sober life now going on how many years
of sobriety?
>> Six years.
>> Yeah.
>> What does that look like for you now?
Yeah. What does sober life look like for
you?
>> So for me, and it's and it's a sober
sobriety looks differently for different
people who are in the programs that I go
to. But sobriety is any day where I'm
not using someone.
>> And that doesn't just have to be a lover
or partner. Like that's anybody. And
using somebody to change my internal
chemistry. So I don't like the way I'm
feeling. I'm uncomfortable in the world.
I'm going to manipulate a reaction out
of you about me so that I can feel
better.
>> So now we cut the middleman out. I think
I do that a little.
>> Just a tiny bit, right? Or so it's like
this is I know what I do. I know I know
my [ __ ] I know my [ __ ] Um and so
any day where I'm not doing that is a
sober day, where I'm not intriguing with
anybody. Um and intriguing is like
planting seeds of maybe, right? Where
it's like I'm going to just keep I'm
going to keep this person a little bit
on the hook. I'm going to keep this
person a little bit on the hook.
Yeah, they're married now. I'll keep
that person on like I'll keep that
person on the hook. So any day where I'm
not flirting. So flirting for me is a
bottom line behavior because flirting
for me is not safe. Um, and
>> and other people can flirt,
>> you know, just like alcoholics can't
drink.
>> I can't flirt,
>> you know, like how do you stop?
>> Flirting is I catch it
>> and I'm like, you're doing it
>> and then I leave this and I have a
friend who's a drug addict who was at a
a drug addict to recovery was at a
nightclub and texted her sponsor and
said like, "I'm having so much fun, but
people are doing ecstasy."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and her sponsor said,
"Collect your purse and leave the
premises." Right? So, I was like, like
if I'm in a situation where I'm like,
"Ooh, I'm doing that thing that I do."
It's like, "Girlfriend, collect your
purse, leave the premise."
>> You'll literally leave the party if
you're
>> I will leave the room,
>> you know? I will leave the room. And
it's like, go talk to somebody you're
not attracted to right now.
>> Like, oh, there's kids here at this
barbecue. Go hang out with the kids.
Yeah.
>> Right. It's like this is somebody's
spouse. This is somebody's partner. This
is somebody this is not harmless at all
>> for you to be doing this. Like you don't
belong in this conversation that you're
in right now.
>> It's not safe for anybody.
>> Does this after after like is there a
recent instance where you did this? Like
does this still come up in you or is the
impulse to flirt?
>> I was interested in it because I'm not
um
listen I'm always going to be a sex and
love addict. Um just like Rhea was
always going to be a drug addict. And
one of the things that I really learned
like right up front and personal and
close with Rehea because I got to see it
was what it looks like when an addict
decides they're not an addict anymore.
So, like that example was such a gift
that she gave to me where it's like, I
don't [ __ ] with this. Like, I'm I'm a
sex and love addict. I will die a sex
and love addict. I will hopefully die a
sober sex and love addict. I got so
angry when I first came into recovery
when I found out that the like the cure
for my thing is that you have to learn
how to love and take care of yourself.
>> Well, that's in the world.
>> I was like, ew. First of all, like the
whole reason I'm like this is because
>> I wasn't getting the care and love that
I needed
>> like at a very tender age, right? So
it's like I've been told since the day I
was born to take care of myself. So [ __ ]
you.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, like I want somebody to take
care of me and I'll take care of you if
you take care of me, right?
So, but the remedy is to learn how to
make a life that is so rich and anchored
and grounded and full that I'm not out
here like a beggar
>> trying to get that from somebody. So I
meditate and I pray and I do and I turn
over things with my fellows in recovery
and but what's happened is that although
I started doing those things
resentfully, what I've now seen is like,
oh wait, when I do all of these things
that are that make me be well, my life
is so good
>> that I don't actually want to bring in
anybody into it at this moment just for
today.
I don't want to the amount of myself
that I want to give away
>> or or compromise on or sacrifice is
zero. I love my life. I don't want
anyone living in here with me. I don't
want anybody like I don't want like no
like I'm good. I don't want to ask
anyone's permission to go traveling. I
don't want to I just don't want to No, I
don't want to share
>> You want to share a bed?
>> No, I don't want to share a bed. Like
not today. I don't want that today. I
don't know about tomorrow, but like just
for today, I'm like, "Oh, this is a
weird feeling. I'm good."
>> I do notice you keep saying today. So,
is that sort of uh not excluding the
possibility that you might want
partnership or relationship in the
future?
>> The future is a really dangerous
neighborhood for me to hang out in with
a mind like mine. Instantly, if I start
thinking about the future, I'm going to
go into neurosis
>> instantly. I mean,
>> start thinking about the future.
>> I am,
>> right?
>> Yeah. It's tough.
>> There's some things I'm looking forward
to. There's some things I'm not.
>> Right. Like the future's a really scary
neighborhood. And I can go into fantasy
when I think about the future. I can go
into fear when I think about the future.
And those are really bad mental states
for me.
>> So I'm better off just being like right
in this moment. My needs are met. I'm
well. I'm not I'm not up on my [ __ ]
right now. I'm not intriguing with
anybody. I'm not infatuated with
anybody. I'm not obsessed with anybody.
I'm not in withdrawal from anybody. I'm
not running away from anyone. I'm not
running toward anyone. By all rights,
that's what I a person like me should be
doing today is one of those things cuz
that's what I've done my whole life. So,
if I just get to have a day like for me
like a victorious day is just like I
slept well last night.
>> I woke up.
I was hung out with my dog. I prayed. I
meditated. I my life isn't unmanageable.
>> Like my bills are paid and I'm not
paying anyone else's bills. That's a big
one for you. That's a big one for you.
>> Big one, right? I just get to have a
day. I just get to have a day. That is a
[ __ ] miracle.
Like you're making me feel happy.
>> [ __ ] miracle, right? So like next
year is next year's problem. You know,
just for today it's good. just for
today. And this is that's just good. I'm
happy with that. This addiction to
validation from other people, from
lovers. You gave so much of yourselves
to them. That's how you understood your
worth. I'm also thinking about how much
of yourself you give to your readers,
your audience.
And I'm wondering if how you think about
your relationship to your audience has
changed in this new sober life. Does
that question make sense?
>> I don't feel like my readers owe me
anything and I don't feel like I owe
them anything. It's the opposite of a
codependent relationship.
>> Wow.
>> I actually just feel like, hey guys, I
did a thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, if you would like to be part of this
thing, you're welcome to come along and
if not, my feelings won't be hurt. Um,
and the one thing that I feel like with
this book that I feel like is slightly
slightly different in terms of the
that feels very recovery to me is that
just last week I sent an email out to my
publishers here and overseas and to my
agent and and all the people involved in
in the production of this book and I
just said um, hey, listen in I have
worked so hard for my serenity and I
have it.
>> Yeah. just for today. Like my life is
really serene. In the interest of
safeguarding that precious, priceless
serenity,
>> I don't need to hear about any reviews.
>> Wow. I love that.
>> Like, not the good, not the good ones or
the bad ones because I've worked so hard
to not look into your eyes to see if I'm
okay.
>> Um, and to not take a survey. We call it
a monkey survey. My friends and I call
it a monkey survey. asking all the
monkeys in the room if they approve of
me. Like I've worked so hard to not do
that. That with this book especially, I
think it's really important to not be
asking the world, is it okay that I
wrote this book?
>> I want to end on something Rehea said. I
feel like it it it goes along with what
you're sharing. You quote her as saying,
"The truth has legs. It always stands."
What is one truth that stands for you at
the end of all of this?
>> I will never be happy unless I take
complete self-accountability for my own
life. And I can trick myself into
thinking that
somebody else is accountable for my life
or should be.
and
my life and the universe have given me
lots of opportunities to try to make
other people accountable for my
>> like just oh yeah go try that go try
that with someone else go try it with
someone else go try it with someone else
but for the first time in my life for
these last six years
>> I have become a responsible steward of
my own life and that feels
really beautiful and and I don't think
happiness is going to be available to me
if I'm not doing that. Nothing short of
that is going to make me happy.
>> This is actually my real final question.
Rehea was your hairdresser. What would
she say about the hair now?
>> Oh my god. She would hate it.
>> She would hate it. I almost did this.
>> I think it looks great.
>> Thank you. I love it. And that's also
the fact like the fact that I love it is
also very important because uh a lot of
people don't. Um but I do. And I do
remember there was one commenter you
talked about who said, "Why you bald
though?"
>> "Why do you want to be bald though?"
Somebody said,
>> "Maybe because it's like so
>> why you want to be bald though?" I love
it.
>> I mean, what's your hairare routine?
>> I almost It's I shave my head. I I have
clippers and I clip my head once a week.
Um this is a whole radical new
transformation of consciousness for me
where it's like, "Oh, wait a minute. I
don't I am not for you."
>> Yeah. Like I do not exist
as a thing for you.
>> I know, but to want to look at.
>> But you look great. You think you have a
look great head shape and that's We can
talk about this offline, but I'm worried
about my own head shape. So, I really
admire you.
>> We're going to talk about this right
now,
>> okay?
>> Because this is extremely important.
>> Please.
>> I think I have a bump.
>> I didn't do this for years because I was
like, I don't have the right shaped
head.
>> And that stopped me from doing this for
a long time. And then when I did it, I
was like,
>> I actually really love this. actually
actually really love that. Someone gave
me the Clippers now. Gave me the
clippers. Let's go to the bathroom. The
New York Times going.
>> It's so good. And all I want is to be
free.
>> And I don't want to like nothing about
the way that I present myself anymore is
like,
>> you know, there's a line, it's Eat,
Pray, Love. They even put it in the
movie. It was in the book and the movie
where a friend said to me, this should
have been a warning 20 years ago, 25
years ago. They were like, "Hey, Liz,
you know how some people start to look
like their dogs?
>> You always look like whoever you're
dating. cuz I would change I would I
would change my entire way I dressed, my
entire way I looked like
>> and I it took me all these years to be
like what do I like like what how do I
like to dress?
>> Yeah.
>> And how do I like my hair? And and it's
like wait I actually don't want to ever
wear makeup again like ever. Um but I
want to wear a ton of bracelets and have
a shaved head. Apparently this is what I
like.
>> The look is working. Again, not that you
care what I think cuz no lava, whatever,
but I'm just telling you the look is
working. All right. So, I'm serious
about the the next time you I don't know
when you'll see me again, but it's like
so satisfying.
>> Please go.
>> Thank you. See you next time. See you
next time.
[Music]